A few notes about the Ortho post. I think it is great that we can discuss this. This would be impossible on Social Media where everyone immediately flies off the handle. :–)
I think doing without believing is fine but believing without doing is quite useless. We can believe that technology will find a solution to climate change or we can each do something now.
Steve comments:
If I don’t believe that compassion is important, then I will not have the facility of acting compassionately. If I don’t believe that not doing harm to the environment is important then I will act out of selfishness and expediency.
Maybe this is just the way my brain works, but I learned as kid that practice improves whatever I do. I don’t need to believe that practice improves everything. I have the evidence. I don’t need to believe that compassion is important, because I know that it is essential. I don’t need to believe that not doing harm to the environment is important because I can see what has been happening because of our actions. Loss of species, loss of wilderness, flesh-eating bacteria that feeds on plastic, plastic we have put in the ocean (that’s something I learned about this week…)
The bottom line is, if a belief helps to motivates us to be a better human, a better musician, a kinder anything, then by all means we should use that motor. 100%!
I don’t profess to be an authority on Buddhism, but isn’t there the idea or concept of The Noble Eightfold Path one item of which is “Right Intention”?
and
And intention flows from principle or belief.
I don’t see what Right Intention has to do with Belief. I really don’t see the connection and perhaps you can explain it to me. When I practice the flow of certain chords, or a tremolo, my intention is to be a better player. I don’t see how belief is going to help me with that. I set the intention and then I get to work. I don’t need to believe that the work will improve my ability. I know that already.
Right intention is simply the beginning of an action, of doing.
Similarly I don’t believe that meditation is good for me. I know it. I know it from practice, from doing it for thousands of hours. I accept that perhaps I am being obtuse and I am not getting the point you are making.
James comments:
Although Rome was not built in a day, would it have ever been built without belief?
Did Romans need to believe? When Hadrian required that the Pantheon have a giant oculus at the top, where normally the key stone sits and takes the weight… did belief help engineers find the solution? I don’t know. Is it necessary to motivate ourselves with belief? If anything there has been too much belief in our history: the belief that one’s faith or skin color or tribe is better than anyone else. That hasn’t gotten us very far, has it?
Regarding building Rome, I ‘ve been considering this ever since I read this post. I go with Ottmar on this. My thought was: imagine what these talented Romans might have accomplished without the burden of beliefs. The world might have enjoyed freedom from war, oppression, slavery, pollution, etc. without all the “isms” we have fought and oppressed each other over. It’s only beliefs that divide us; science, art, and true accomplishment unite us. It’s significant that religious beliefs and philosophies have imprisoned and held back discoveries and compassion at every turn. Much more to think about here.
>A few notes about the Ortho post. I think it is great that we can discuss this. This would be impossible on Social Media where everyone immediately flies off the handle. :–)
I do too, this forum is the closest I veer toward “social media” at all. Everyone is extremely kind here. I used to love to talk about this kind of thing to my students, but now my administration discourages such “off topic” discussions. So this is it. WOW, this could get long …
>I think doing without believing is fine but believing without doing is quite useless. We can believe that technology will find a solution to climate change or we can each do something now.
I think you are right, but I also have to say that I think we get in trouble regarding the word “belief.” The word has become quite diluted since the Enlightenment era. Additionally, I think that English is a rather … um … “non-subtle” language. I think a lot of misunderstanding in the Anglophone world is due to inherent limitations of the language itself. It kind of functions as a very blunt instrument.
When I hear the word “belief” particularly when associated with the word “Orthodox” … I think this is a good example of information loss. The word suffix of this word is “dox” coming from “doxa” which means “opinion” … also from dokein “to appear, seem, think.” There is an entire tradition within the Eastern Orthodox and Greek Orthodox that has layers upon layers of meaning as it relates to “doxa” in “Orthodox” which are completely lost in modern English.
But of course in Greek there are shadings: there is another word that could be translated as “opinion” which is Eikasia (εἰκασία). And there are differences between the two of these but both get translated into English as “opinion.”
The Greeks had another word for “belief” which was “pistis” which originally meant “faith, confidence, honesty, belief” and which was rendered in Latin as “fides” by the Catholic church translators.
But to the Greeks such as Plato, Aristotle, and the Stoics, “pistis” could refer to “trust”, “confidence”, “faith”, “conviction”, or “persuasion.” It carried the sense of a conviction or trust in something, whether it be an idea, a person, or a deity. The concept of “pistis” could also relate to notions of “credibility”, “reliability”, and “proof”. Now, it just means “belief” or “faith” … at least that’s how it gets translated into modern English. Absolutely zero subtlety.
>I don’t see what Right Intention has to do with Belief. I really don’t see the connection and perhaps you can explain it to me.
Well, all I have is a copy of the Dhammapada from an undergrad course I took (I told you I don’t profess to be an authority.) In that (heavily highlighted) book I find the following quote from the Buddha:
“All that we are is the result of what we have thought: it is founded on our thoughts, it is made up of our thoughts. If a man speaks or acts with an evil thought, pain follows him, as the wheel follows the foot of the ox that draws the carriage. “All that we are is the result of what we have thought: it is founded on our thoughts, it is made up of our thoughts. If a man speaks or acts with a pure thought, happiness follows him, like a shadow that never leaves him.” In the margin, I have written “c.f., dokein/doxa”
Presumably in this context, I am taking the meaning of “pistis” (πίστις) as being (as shown above) to be “thoughts” … but it would work the same for “dokein”. Of course “thoughts” are now in modern times using these words as simply “belief.”
>I accept that perhaps I am being obtuse and I am not getting the point you are making.
I don’t interpret it that way at all. I consider it to be διάλογος (“dialogos”) or dialogue. I probably should have been more clear that I was drawing on my own tradition(s) or history and not common parlance.
This is great. Seriously, thank you so much for that.
Every night we go to sleep trusting that we will wake up in the morning. That could be considered a belief.
Thought precedes action. I suppose it is true in the purely mechanical sense. Action begins with the impulse asking a muscle to twitch. Some Eastern philosophies think that the impulse to action should come from the belly rather than the head, from the gut rather than the mind.
That rings true for me. That is the reason practicing an instrument works. To make something such a natural movement that it can unfold WITHOUT the brain getting in the way. When I am improvising, and IF I am really in that moment, I think my body acts on its own. The brain observes and stays out of the way. At least, that’s what it feels like.
This is also what people recount who accomplished amazing feats. I remember the story of a German cop catching a baby that a Turkish grandfather threw from a burning building, after briefly making eye contact. No time to think, just do. If you actually thought about catching a little baby you’d probably freeze.
But, of course, we can say that the decision to practice an instrument in order not to think begins with a thought. :—)
Belief vs Faith -for me..
Mental belief’s can waver and change – a mental construct.
Belief is not faith itself, it is only its external form.
Faith does not depend on reasoning or logic. It lives on the inside.
(Imagination /creativity play here.)
We live in this beautiful world , with all its conveniences because of our collective history (good and bad). Many collective achievements were the result of religious faiths , personally I find this beautiful.
Evolution is a process, a mystery, a magical ride….
Our judgements and projections divide us (good to be mindful of this).
Global problems are complex, maybe impossible to solve.
I am hopeful our brilliant scientists , academics and faith leaders from around the world can work together to can find solutions.
Creativity, imagination, observation, study, independent thinking, courage _ these get it done.
creativity and imagination emerge emerge from the unknown
many geopolitical leaders are influenced by own faith/beliefs. Their decisions can impact the entire world.
Playing out pretty dramatically in Eastern Europe.
yep, sure is..